[Editor’s Note: The following contains spoilers for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice]

The Big Picture

Collider’s Steve Weintraub speaks with
Wednesday
and
Beetlejuice Beetlejuice
writer Alfred Gough.
Alfred Gough and Miles Millar are renowned for their successful writing partnership, creating hits like
Wednesday
and writing
Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.

During this interview, Gough discusses the challenges of showrunning compared to screenwriting, the defunct
Shanghai Dawn
threequel, and the narrative decisions in
Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice
.

Alfred Gough and his writing partner Miles Millar are blockbuster gasoline. They’ve brought us Jackie Chan classics, Mummy expeditions, and hundreds of tales from Smallville. Through their wildly prolific 30-year writing partnership, Gough and Millar have kept audiences laughing and at their edge of their seats.

In 2022, Gough and Millar created and wrote the universally acclaimed Wednesday, a Netflix series starring Jenna Ortega as the infamous daughter of the Addams Family. The series follows Wednesday as a student attempting to master her growing psychic abilities and solve a local mystery. Half of the lauded series was directed by the exceptionally singular Tim Burton. Having worked with Gough and Miller, Burton soon commissioned them to write the long-awaited sequel to his beloved Beetlejuice (also starring Ortega). Beetlejuice Beetlejuice follows three generations of Deetz women as they return home to be haunted once more by Michael Keaton’s “agent of chaos.”

Collider’s Steve Weintraub had the opportunity to talk shop with Gough, diving into all things Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice and Wednesday. Gough tells us the truth behind streaming, the tale of the defunct threequel to his incredibly popular Shanghai Noon series, and what it truly takes to write a proper Tim Burton Beetlejuice picture.

Screenwriting Movies vs. Showrunning TV

COLLIDER: What do you think would surprise people to learn about being a showrunner?

ALFRED GOUGH: That’s an excellent question. I think the surprising thing that you learn is that you are actually the CEO of a $60 to $100 million startup, is really what you are. We’ve always said this: you take, in our case, two guys who wrote together in Miles [Millar]’s apartment. You write something, then you are literally put in charge of a business and there’s no training program. There’s certainly more now than there was 20–25 years ago when Miles and I started. It takes time to develop these skills, and some of them you can only develop by doing it, which can sometimes be very painful when you’re starting. That’s really the hard part. It is something where being a writer and being a showrunner are actually mutually exclusive skill sets in many ways. It takes time to learn it.

What do you think would surprise people to learn about being a screenwriter in Hollywood?

GOUGH: There’s been so much written about it. I do think what we like about being screenwriters now is because with showrunners, it’s all on you. When you’re a screenwriter, you write the script, you get the notes, and in the case of Beetlejuice [Beetlejuice], we were just working with Tim [Burton] because he was filtering the actor’s notes and the studio notes. It was great, but in a way, you’re like an economist. You don’t have to run the business. You can just give a forecast, and people might take it, or they might not. For us, it’s less responsibility on our backs versus showrunning where it’s all on you.

If you can get the financing to make anything you want, is there a script or something in the drawer that you guys have been really trying to get off the ground for forever?

GOUGH: There is actually, and we’re in the process of trying to do it. It’s a script we wrote about 15 years ago. It’s a project for Miles to direct. I can’t really say much more about it than that, but we literally have a script in the drawer that we pulled out about two years ago and are in the process of putting it together.

You can’t say the title, can you?

GOUGH: I can’t. No.

I won’t pressure you.

Will There Ever Be a ‘Shanghai Dawn?’

What is the status, if any, on Shanghai Dawn ?

GOUGH: We came very close. Oh my gosh, COVID always makes my timeline wonky. I think it was like 2017, 2018, we had a script and Jackie [Chan] and Owen [Wilson] had verbally kind of committed. Then, at a certain point, Jackie just decided he didn’t want to do it. That’s all I really know. There was a moment probably six or seven years ago where it looked like it was starting to come together. We weren’t writing it, we were working with some younger writers, but we helped break the story, and they were writing it. So, that’s where we are.

What was it about?

GOUGH: I think the story was the Jackie character, was now working in silent movies — it was kind of the Tom Mix era. That’s where they had gotten to. Then Owen was down in Mexico, and I think it was something about him being with revolutionaries, and Jackie had to go save him. I honestly don’t remember, but I do remember it was that kind of era, the early silent movie era of Hollywood, which we thought was a lot of fun.

‘Beetlejuice 2′ Is The Biggest Hit In Gough’s 30-Year Career
“The last thing we want to do is destroy peoples’ childhood memories.”

Jumping into Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Huge opening weekend. What was your dream for opening weekend? Were you like, “Please let it make over $50 [million],” or were you like, “Please let it make over $100?”

GOUGH: I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t have a number in mind. Like anything, you want it to be successful, and you want people to enjoy the movie. Look, the opening weekend was bigger than we could have ever expected. I don’t know if a year ago anybody would’ve had the sequel to Beetlejuice opening over $100 million in September. So, it’s one of those numbers. Miles and I started writing together 30 years ago, and the fact that this is the biggest hit of our career 30 years in, we’re incredibly grateful and couldn’t be more thrilled. The fact that certain people we know, who don’t have to reach out to you, reach out, say how much they’ve enjoyed the movie, say how much their families have enjoyed the movie, it’s actually really nice, and, to be honest, a huge relief. The last thing we want to do — as you know, we’ve been doing a lot of these projects throughout our career — is destroy people’s childhood memories. [Laughs]

I totally get it. How long have you guys actually been working on the screenplay?

GOUGH: Funnily enough, from Tim’s first asking us to do it to now has been about three years. It was actually really short. Tim approached us in the fall of 2021. We were on the set of Season 1 of Wednesday, and he asked us to write it. He said it’s the movie that people come up to him and ask for the sequel the most. Which, if you think about Tim’s filmography, that’s pretty incredible. He had been having conversations with Michael [Keaton] and Winona [Ryder], obviously, over the years, and I think he was ready to do it.

We met with him that weekend at his apartment, because we were all in Romania. He laid out things he wanted in the movie, and Miles and I went off and did an outline. We kind of broke the story, did an outline, came back, and pitched it to him. He liked it. Then we wrote up the outline, he read it, he gave a few notes, and he was excited. Then we pitched it to the studio. I think that was just more of a hand stamp. I think Tim was like, “I’m doing this movie, but here’s the story so you guys can hear it.” Then we wrote the script. Obviously, it goes back and forth. There were drafts, but, again, it was only us and Tim, really. He was filtering the notes from the actors at the studio. We turned in our final pages on May 1 at midnight — the strike was starting, and we turned them in. It’s the usual race to the finish line. That was last summer. Then they shot it last summer, and now we’re out.

Cracking the Screenplay to ‘Beetlejuice Beetlejuice’
“It’s the Deetz women and all the terrible men in their lives!”
Image via Warner Bros. Pictures

What were some of the big changes that happened along the way? Did you have a storyline that you really loved that didn’t make it? Or was it because the process was so different, because you’re really just dealing with the director, that it really never went through crazy changes?

GOUGH: It didn’t really go through crazy changes. When Tim asked us to write it, the first thing we did was we went and watched the movie again. We hadn’t seen it in probably 20 years. We went and watched it several times. The first time just to re-watch it, and then we started to study it. The thing with Beetlejuice that we found is that it’s weirdly timeless and completely of its time. It’s a very ’80s movie, the idea of yuppies moving to the country and wanting to set up by the country. There’s a social satire aspect, there’s a family drama aspect, and then there’s a ghost story. In its essence, we need to find a way to weave that into the movie where it feels like a Beetlejuice movie, but also, “Why make it in 2024?”

A lot of times — not a lot of times — with every sequel, it’s, “Why are we doing it?” It can’t just be because it’s been arbitrarily decided. There needs to be a reason. I think for Tim and for us, we really like the idea of exploring three generations of Deetz women. It’s Catherine [O’Hara], Winona, and then Jenna [Ortega] playing the daughter. Where would Lydia Deetz be? Last time we saw her, she was 16 years old. What has life done to her? What has life done to Delia? Where would she be? Then the idea of introducing Lydia’s daughter, Astrid, who is nothing like her mother, who could be our new eyes and ears into this world.

That’s really how it started, but the structure of the movie was kind of the structure of the movie even from the outline. Once Tim, Miles, and I got that part of it right, and we wrote the script, then I think what that allowed all of us to do now is, “How do we make it better? How is it Beetlejuice?” There’s a subversiveness to Beetlejuice, so anytime something felt too emotional or too on the nose — like even the scene when they meet the dad in the afterlife, and he’s talking to them, the fact that he’s got piranhas on his face, and they’re eating, and you hear the sound… It’s just like any moment, how do you subvert that so it doesn’t feel schmaltzy? Any emotion, you’ve got to cut it with something.

The other thing was, we didn’t want Beetlejuice to suddenly be the star of the movie. He’s not the star. He’s an agent of chaos. I mean, Tim and Michael have all talked about this. He’s in this movie certainly more than he was in the first movie proportionally, but not by much. So it’s, “How do we keep him? How is he an agent of chaos?” Once we came up with the idea that Astrid meets the boy, Jeremy, and realizes Jeremy’s a ghost, and then Jeremy tempts her, “If you help me, you can see your father again.” We needed to come up with a reason why Lydia would have to go to Beetlejuice to help her. It’s the last person or entity she would ever want to summon, but that’s the only one who could help save her daughter. Once we had that, we’re like, “It suddenly feels like we’ve got a story. It’s got propulsion, but it also allows us to do all of these other things — tell this family drama, explore the afterlife more.” It felt like it put Lydia and Beetlejuice in a really interesting place. Again, we didn’t really think about this until I think somebody may have brought it up in an interview — it’s the Deetz women and all the terrible men in their lives! [Laughs]

That’s true.

GOUGH: Which is like, “Yeah, it’s true.” We always said it was a joyful movie about grief or death, but then it’s also a movie about women overcoming the toxic male relationships in their lives. [Laughs]

Alfred Gough Answers ‘Beetlejuice’ Super Fan Questions
“I love when people come up with these theories.”
Image via Warner Bros. Pictures

In the original Beetlejuice, there’s a throwaway line about how those who commit suicide become civil servants in the afterlife. We see that with the Beauty Queen receptionist who slit her wrists. Should fans apply this context to Astrid’s dad’s death in the sequel, considering he’s a civil servant working in immigration?

GOUGH: It’s very interesting because that is something that, to be honest, I didn’t remember. When I saw the movie again, I was like, “Oh, that’s aligned,” and then when you looked at all the people. I think we wanted to intentionally keep that vague. It could have been an accident, it could have been something else. We intentionally didn’t lean into that.

Image via Warner Bros.

I have some questions from Maggie, who runs our news team. Winona Ryder has made no secret that she would love to see Beetlejuice and Lydia end up together. Was there any early drafts of the sequel where she didn’t reject his second attempt at marriage?

GOUGH: No, there wasn’t. [Laughs] No. Never.

Was the end sequence with Astrid ending up with a guy who dressed up as Dracula an allusion to Winona’s role in Bram Stoker’s Dracula ? Similarly, was the crow-themed exhibit (Delia’s art exhibit) a Schitt’s Creek reference?

GOUGH: The Delia one, definitely not. Certainly not from us, maybe from the production designer. And the end with Astrid, that’s a great idea. I wish we thought of it, but no, it’s not. [Laughs] I love when people come up with these theories, and sometimes I just want to go, “Yeah, that’s exactly right. You’ve figured it out. Nailed it.”

I mean, Maggie’s also a super fan.

GOUGH: Yes. By the way, I also love when people can read into things that weren’t there, but they can see. I always love that. But sadly, tell her we’re not that smart. [Laughs]

Tim Burton Came Up With the ‘Beetlejuice Beetlejuice’ Ending
“There’s nothing about Beetlejuice that’s ever wrapped up in a bow.”
Image via Warner Bros. Pictures

How did you guys decide what was going to happen with Charles and having the stop-motion to tell his story?

GOUGH: Tim wanted Charles’ death to be the impetus for everybody to come back to Winter River. He told us this story, he said, “This is my biggest fear of dying — I’m in a plane crash; I don’t die. I almost drown, but I don’t. I’m about to be saved, and a shark eats me.” We were like, “That’s fantastic. That’s going to be Charles’ death.” Then we wrote it as stop-motion animation because there was stop-motion animation in the first movie. It also felt, to us, a great, fun way to tell that story, just to tell that backstory. Again, what is the Beetlejuice way to do that? It’s like when Beetlejuice tells his backstory, it was Tim’s idea to do it in Italian, like a Mario Bava film, or it sounds like a Fellini! It was trying to find ways to subvert things that you’ve seen a million times in a movie, which is, “Here’s the backstory of how somebody died.” So, we do it with stop-motion, and suddenly it felt like it really belonged in our world.

How did you guys decide exactly what the ending was going to be? I’ll be honest with you, I’ve been reading people’s comments, and there are some people who wanted it to end with Lydia and Astrid just on the trip together, and that’s where it ends.

GOUGH: Right.

And then there’s the sequence that happens after that. How did you guys decide? Was it ever almost them on the trip peacefully just smiling, and that’s the end?

GOUGH: You know what? It was. The last thing we wrote, which was Tim’s idea, he goes, “You see her get married. You see the stuff that you see — that she meets the boy at Dracula’s Castle, and then suddenly they’re getting married, and then suddenly they’re having a baby, and it’s Beetlejuice, and then you realize that that part’s all a dream.” There’s nothing about Beetlejuice that’s ever wrapped up in a bow. I laugh every time I see it. It’s so bonkers. It’s just like when the baby drops and says, “Mama,” and Astrid smiles, I just think that’s hysterical. That’s really what it was. It was like, “How do we subvert this, so it’s not just the neat happy ending, and you’re off to the sunset?”

Also, if you think about it, in the first movie, if you recall, Geena Davis comes in on the sandworm, picks up Beetlejuice, and then you think, “Oh, whatever happened to Beetlejuice?” Then you have that tag at the end when they’re all dancing to “Jump In The Line,” and you see Beetlejuice in the waiting room, and then he gets his head shrunk. The Shrinkers scene was the inspiration for having him with the boiler room full of Shrinkers as his people, who make his call. That was definitely a nod to that. Also, we just wanted to see, “Oh, Beetlejuice is still around.” [Laughs] He still kind of haunts Lydia, and maybe that never stops in one way or another. Even though she’s put a lot of this to rest.

Image via Warner Bros.

Did the film actually end up with a lot of deleted scenes? I haven’t spoken to Tim, so I don’t really know.

GOUGH: It really didn’t.

I was just curious. I’m always fascinated if there’s a big storyline that got cut out. You know what I mean?

GOUGH: No, I do know what you mean. If you remember, the first movie was like 89 or 90 minutes. We all wanted to keep the story and the script lean because it just feels like, again, that’s kind of the pace of a Beetlejuice. I don’t think anybody wants to see a three-hour Beetlejuice movie. You know what I mean? Things are funnier when they’re shorter. So, I think just to have that kind of pace is intrinsic in the Beetlejuice movie.

Tim Burton Wanted To Direct Every Episode of ‘Wednesday’

I have some questions about Wednesday for you. None of them are spoilers, so you do not have to worry. I know better. I know Tim’s directing part of Season 2. How many episodes is he doing?

GOUGH: He’s doing four. He’s doing half the season like he did in Season 1.

I got to tell you, I wasn’t sure what to expect with Wednesday Season 1. I’ll be honest, it was a lot better than I expected, and I understand why it’s so popular. Because you just don’t know what a show is going to be.

GOUGH: By the way, that’s my favorite reaction. I’m not kidding, I love that reaction when people are like, “This is really good.” In their head, they’re going, “I thought it was going to suck.” And by the way, I understand. I understand.

Image via Netflix

By the way, I never thought it was going to suck , but I also didn’t realize it was going to be so good. I think Tim is one of the reasons because he’s a fantastic director. His episodes really set the tone and pull you in. The director really matters.

GOUGH: In that case, he was always our pie in the sky. When we went out with it, we wanted to attach a director because you want to do everything you can to make your packages as salable as possible. We had written the first five scripts and sent Tim the pilot through his agent, having been told he’s never done TV, probably won’t read it or respond, and then four days later, he loved it. We FaceTimed with him, and we were like, “Oh, you want to direct the pilot?” He goes, “I want to do all of them.” It’s one of those dream phone calls, or in this case, FaceTimes, that you wish for in a career. So he read it, he loved it, and he was in.

What was great about doing the show is we got back to practical effects. Also, I think it’s the first time in a long time he had done something that’s funny, that’s a comedy. The Addams Family is funny. Obviously, it’s got all the other parts of it, as well, but that’s what it is, and Tim is very funny. His visual humor is hysterical. It was amazing.

It’s also amazing he’s doing four more episodes, because he could easily have said, “I did it.”

GOUGH: Exactly! No, but he loves it. He just loves the show, and he loves doing it, and loves working with Jenna. It’s great. Believe me, we’re thrilled because I’m with you — I would’ve thought he’d be like, “I did it. Peace out.” No, he doesn’t do that. When he loves something, this is the thing, he’s not cynical at all. That’s the other reason Beetlejuice worked; he didn’t make it for any other reason than he wanted to make that movie. He wanted to tell that story. There is nothing cynical. It is completely Tim. I think it’s amazing when you think he’s had a 40-year career, he has an incredibly specific style — we all know what a Tim Burton movie is. It’s so unique and peculiar, and yet it’s somehow completely universal. Literally, I can’t think of any other filmmaker like him.

‘Wednesday’ Seasons 3 and 4 “Aren’t Set in Stone”
“We have ideas for Season 3 and Season 4.”
Image via Netflix

The first season has eight episodes and the second season has eight episodes. Did Netflix ever say to you, “Can you do more episodes?” How did you decide for the second season to be eight episodes?

GOUGH: It’s interesting, eight has kind of become the number. Believe me, look, we worked in 22 episodes, we’ve done 10 episodes, we’ve done all iterations of this. Basic cable took us from 22 episodes to, like, 13 episodes, right? Then you thought, “Okay, you can tell the story,” and you had a few what I call “wheel-spinners.” I think in a 13-episode season, there were three wheel-spinners. Then they went to a 10-episode season, and we’ve done that too. I remember thinking, “Oh, there’s always two episodes that feel like they can’t move the story along as much as you want.”

Weirdly, we found with Into the Badlands that eight was the perfect amount. You could tell the story, you had enough runway, it didn’t feel rushed, and you could come to a satisfying ending in eight. It felt like you weren’t asking the audience to stick around for a couple of wheel-spinners. Again, television’s different now. These things, as you know, are chapters of a book. Each season’s a book, whereas on network TV, when we were doing Smallville, Smallville was short stories in the world. Then you had a couple each season that gave you a mythology. It gave it an arc, but it was a different beast.

Oh, completely.

When you came up with the idea, I know you guys thought about where it could all go, but you think loosely. After the gargantuan success of Season 1, all of a sudden, it’s like, “Wait, this could be a multi-season show.” When you guys were writing Season 2, how much were you already like, “We really do need to know where Season 3 and Season 4 might go so we can actually lay track”? And how much is it, “Let’s just do Season 2 and then we’ll worry about Season 3 if we are so lucky?”

GOUGH: You know what? It’s never one or the other. It’s not like, “Oh, we’re just making one cake this season, then we’ll figure out the next cake next season.” I think what happens is, you have a loose idea — and we used to do this with Smallville — we had signposts. Then, as you’re developing a season, certain things start to pop, and then you realize, “That’s an interesting story,” or, “That’s something,” and then that could lead you into Season 3. Here, again, we have the signposts, an idea of where we want to get each season. Then we also open it up. When we’re breaking the season, we’re seeing what stories for us are interesting, what characters are interesting. Then, when you start shooting it, you’re like, “Okay.” It’s a little bit of both.

Not to sound mystical or like a cop-out, what’s interesting about a television show is, it tells you what it can and can’t do. We used to do this with Smallville — Smallville had some great episodes, and then it had things it couldn’t do. For instance, Smallville couldn’t do magic. Those episodes sucked. You learn that, and you don’t do those anymore. But you know what I mean. It’s interesting what a show tells you. I think for us, because we’ve been doing it long enough, is you get a feel for it, and you just keep yourself open to, like, “This is what this show does well.” When it starts to feel like, “Why isn’t this working,” it’s because this shouldn’t be in the show. Some of it is just a feeling. It’s just an instinct you get while you’re breaking the stories. Some of it comes because we’ve been doing it a long time. We have ideas for Season 3 and Season 4. We also know that none of those things are set in stone because things could change, and we could come up with something better as we’re going along.

The Future Of Streaming: “Everything Old Is New Again”
“Guess who’s running most of these streaming services? Veterans of network TV.”
Custom Image by Collider Staff

So, the one negative about streaming is that it’s just a long time between seasons, and it sucks.

GOUGH: Yes. It does.

I know it costs money, but why don’t more scripts get commissioned for the following season sooner? So, it’s not like you’re waiting for, say, Wednesday Season 2 to come out? It does well, and all of a sudden, they’re like, “Start writing immediately so we can start filming immediately.” So my question is, have you guys already been writing anything on Season 3 in the hopes that you can make it?

GOUGH: [Laughs] I will tell you, Season 2 has taken all of our time and energy. But to your point, that’s a very good question. If you look at where streamers were six, seven years ago and where they are now, if you recall, a lot of early Netflix shows, they were, like, 55–60 minutes. You’re just like, “Oh my god, there are 15 minutes that we could cut out and not miss.” If you look at most episodes of Wednesday and other shows now, guess what they are? About 45 minutes. Guess what used to be 45 minutes long? Network television. Guess what they’re doing now? Selling ads. Guess who’s running most of these streaming services? Basically, network television people. Veterans of network TV.

Ultimately, everything old is new again. There are reasons that a network TV show like Grey’s Anatomy can run 20+ seasons, or C.S.I., or any of these things, because there’s a comfort to that. I do think, as we go, my opinion is that streaming is going to get back to that more. Like I say, you start to see it now. Because guess what? We all grew up watching episodes that were 45 minutes even with the ads, or you’d fast-forward through them on your VCR or on TiVO. I think those things are starting to seep back in. Probably, they will start to give longer commissions in terms of, “Write Season 2 and 3, so that we can film Season 2, have a little break, and then jump into Season 3 faster.” The streaming services want these shows back faster, too. Nobody wants to wait two years for a show. When you think about Smallville, we finished airing in May. We started airing at the end of September or early October. That was your break, and then you were back into it.

Listen, I totally get it. I also understand because I’ve spoken to executives that you can’t commission scripts for every show. But when one show is incredibly popular, it’s a smart business decision to be like, “Let’s just get started writing. Worst case, and we can always tweak.”

GOUGH: Of course. Yeah.

When Will We See ‘Wednesday’ Season 2?”
Image via Netflix

Where are you in the filming process now of Season 2?

GOUGH: We are about halfway through production.

Is Tim wrapped in terms of his episodes?

GOUGH: No, because we shoot in blocks.

Why did you go from Romania to Ireland from Season 1 to Season 2?

GOUGH: It was a combination of things, probably for when I have more time. It was mostly because Ireland had a tax credit. To be honest with you, we’ve shot here before, and it’s an incredible film community here. They have fantastic crews, great sound stages, and locations. I think Eastern Europe, for us, was a little hard. Obviously, we were shooting during COVID, and the Ukraine War broke out while we were there. So there were a lot of reasons that we needed to be in a place that had a tax credit, had a more consistent crew base, all of those things. It ultimately just made more sense for the long-term health of the show.

I’ve been to Ireland for set visits and I’ve been to Romania. Ireland is beautiful, amazing crews, and they have Guinness.

GOUGH: There you go.

My opinion is, when you look at the calendar, it’s pretty obvious that your show is going to return next year. Can you actually say that Wednesday Season 2 will be back next year or not?

GOUGH: I can’t. I can’t without some Netflix person coming in. The Netflix police will come and get me. [Laughs]

As someone who understands how things are made, I would wager on the end of next year Wednesday Season 2 — if I was placing a wager.

GOUGH: Okay.

I’m just throwing that out there. I know you can’t confirm.

GOUGH: I can’t confirm. [Laughs]

One last thing, I read that you guys were working on an Uncle Fester spin-off. Is that still the case or was that something wrong that the internet reported?

GOUGH: That’s a lot of internet stuff. So, can’t confirm or deny that one either.

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice is in theaters.

Get Tickets