[Editor’s note: The following contains major spoilers for Season 2 of Shadow and Bone.]In Season 2 of the Netflix series Shadow and Bone, which is based on the best-selling Grishaverse novels from Leigh Bardugo, Alina Starkov (Jessie Mei Li) knows that being the Sun Summoner means that she represents hope to some and danger to others, but what she doesn’t yet know is what that means for her. And with General Kirigan (Ben Barnes), aka The Darkling, and his army of indestructible shadow monsters after her, Alina must harness the depths of her own power in order to save herself, her loved ones, and her world.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Barnes talked about playing a character that’s very clear-cut in their villainy, Kirigan being crippled by his inner demons, what it was like to shoot the ending of the season, the helpful advice he got from Robert De Niro, how he views the relationship between Kirigan and Alina, whether he had a playlist for the Darkling, and what he took home with him as a memento from the Shadow and Bone set. He also talked about whether he’d like to release more music and do more live shows, and how he feels about The Punisher officially being MCU canon.
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Collider: This seems like one of those characters that would be a dream to play for an actor, but at the same time, you wouldn’t necessarily want to play him for too long of a period of time because he is so dark.

BEN BARNES: Yeah, but also even the structure because we were still in COVID protocols for the second season. The gang would all be off filming together, and I would have to wait for these lonely scenes. And you’re spending time considering the toxicity of him, and considering the threat and the violence and the darkness. There were moments that were fun to let loose with, but there was a lot of stewing for this character, for sure.

Image via Netflix

In the first season, you got to play a bit with the question of just how dark the Darkling really is. In the second season, he’s definitely not ambiguous anymore. As the actor who spent that time with him, what was most challenging aspect of taking him out of the gray area and making him much more clear-cut in his villainy As he becomes more singularly focused, how do you keep drawing those layers out to make sure he’s not just dark and evil?

BARNES: You’re right, in the first season, there’s obviously so much manipulation, and he’s wearing different masks, and he’s playing with status, and he’s weaponizing his charm. In the second season, there’s no need for that. He also doesn’t really have the capacity. He doesn’t have the army. He doesn’t have the palace. He doesn’t have those relationships to draw on. The challenge for me was that, in the books, there’s a representational darkness to him that’s in her mind, really, and it’s something quite threatening. In the TV version, it was important for us to safeguard whatever humanity is left. There’s a loneliness to him, in both seasons, but in the second season, he feels alone. That does its work on him, in terms of it fueling a fever in him to pursue this harder and darker agenda. But then, there are these shadow demons, the nichevo’ya, that like in all good fantasy, are metaphorical and they are poisoning him from the inside out and making him cough up this poisoned blood and this toxicity, which is in him. And then, as he coughs it up, he’s realizing his mortality, which makes his moments more precious and his relationships more pertinent, and every moment more important and fueled with agenda. That was how we kept him layered. He’s also curious. He’s asking her questions, which he’s then asking of himself, as we get through towards the end of the season, about what he’s willing to compromise and sacrifice, and who he’s willing to really be. Alina is definitely still a point of obsession for him.

Which would you say is worse for him, the scars that we can see, or the scars that we can’t see?

BARNES: I don’t think he’s bothered about the scars you can see. He’s been alive so long that I don’t think that bothers him, at all. I played a character in The Punisher that was more vain, and that crippled him more. Certainly, it’s the inner demons, which are crippling him by making him feel powerful. There’s a duality to how he feels about that. You have this very basic light versus darkness in a lot of fancy stories, but this one is very complicated. It’s very yin and yang with those little dots of black and white in each other’s halves. Even the darkness in him is double-edged because it’s making him powerful and darker and murderous, but it’s also poisoning him to a point of feeling more vulnerable, and therefore open to feeling different things and willing to compromise. It’s interesting. It was almost a relief to get to the sixth episode and be able to just let loose and tell the truth, and be more raw and nasty. And then, getting through to the end of the series, you want there to be a tenderness to it, as his darkness turns on him.

Image via Netflix

What was it like to shoot the ending of this? When did you shoot the ending? Did you actually get to shoot it last?

BARNES: It was actually my very last few days. And it was interesting because it was almost joyful for me. I’d been so alone for the season, and then I got to be with almost everybody for the last couple of days. In the car on the way into work, I was feeling the pressure of wanting to get out of these scenes what I was really prioritizing, which was a tenderness between the two of them, that’s exposed in the books as her using his real name, and she’s the only one who knows it. We toyed with names in a different way in the show, so we had to replace it with something else, and there was a lot of discussion about how we could do that. It was this idea of her being the guardian of his realization that he has become this monster that he feared, but also always knew he would become. It’s complicated, where he is in the final throws. He’s feeling love and he’s feeling regret, but he’s also still championing his cause, all the way to the bitter end, which you can respect, but the way he went about it was always wrong. It’s messy, and I think life is messy and relationships are messy. Trying to find the clarity in the messiness, it felt like a lot to try to navigate in that final scene, especially in three leather coats in the desert, covered in black blood. There was a lot to it.

You were just laying there, and they were all standing around, waiting to light you on fire. Obviously, the fire isn’t real when you’re there, but is it just weird to lay there in a scene and not do anything?

BARNES: It felt like I was on fire because who knew there was Hungarian desert, but we were in the desert and it was summer. The sun was baking us. I was in three coats, one of which was made of leather, and leather boots. I felt like I was on fire, even when the fire wasn’t going.

Is it hard not to laugh, in moments like that? Is it just weird, surreal, and strange?

BARNES: It’s surreal. It’s that combination of trying to find the joy in doing it and sharing it with people, but then the pressure and the responsibility of telling the story in an appropriate way. Sometimes, especially when the sun was moving and there were 16 characters, you’d only get a couple of cracks at these moments which you feel are really important. You think about them for hours and hours and hours, and days and days and days, and months and months and months, and then you get there and you’ve really only got seven minutes to do that one line. That’s always the hardest thing. The one piece of advice that [Robert] De Niro gave me when I worked with him on The Big Wedding was to say, “The hardest thing is channeling your focus to the most important moment of the most important scene of the most important shot, on that day.” You’re always there on set for 13 hours, and the important bit is gonna take two minutes. So, being focused when that happens, he said was something he’s still learning, and that actually made me feel better, if he still feels that way because I’ve always felt that way. You’ve gotta learn what works for you, in terms of keeping that focus.

Image via Netflix

How do you view the relationship between Kirigan and Alina? Has any of it been genuine for him? Is that something he was ever capable of? Is he just attracted to her power? Did you view all of that as toxic? How did you look at that dynamic between them?

BARNES: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I would almost prefer that you answer the question because I think that it’s so much more interesting to pose questions than it is to answer them, in terms of behavior. But as an actor, I was interested in pursuing this theme of toxicity because there is a very clear metaphor that, every time this man feels threatened, his dark and violent side comes out, even sometimes against his will, which I thought was a really clear, interesting theme, in terms of the toxicity of him. But then, it breaks him. It kills his mother, and it tries to kill everything he loves. In life, we tend to feel sorry for people when their demons get the better of them. So, there was an interesting balance sewn in already, but there’s also this realization that he is the monster, and you respect that kind of realization. But then, he’s so awful and killing people, and all of that stuff. It was about just trying to navigate that balance. In the first episode, we see some of the origin of relationships that he tried to have a different way. He can’t help him but talk about the boy that he was, and he challenges his mother by saying that it’s all her fault, which is very toxic again. But then, he can’t help but say to Alina, “I did trust once. I loved once. I was this thing once. But I was betrayed as a child and I was never innocent again. And I’m certainly not going to stop because of you.” You can feel this connection between them. You can feel there’s a love. You can feel that there’s something more real at play than the way he just behaves. I think that part is for whoever is watching to decide what they feel about it.

Do you have a playlist of songs for the Darkling?

BARNES: Often, I do curate a character playlist. For some reason, with this, I found that more difficult. For the first season, I had that Muse Exogenesis album because I felt it was very operatic and cinematic, and there’s a badass element to it. I would listen to that in the car on the way in sometimes, but I didn’t really have a whole playlist for him. There would have been more sad boy stuff in the second season, if I had done one though.

Do you have plans to release more music? Would you like to do more live shows?

BARNES: Yes, definitely, to both. It’s something that I came to so late that I’m now keen to make up for it, and make some things that I feel proud of, and share them in a way that feels joyful. It’s something which really fuels me, and I feel like I have more to express and make music that is more akin to stuff that I really love. The shows that I’ve been doing recently have felt really joyful, as an experience for everyone. So, I would like to see where I can take that, in between acting roles.

Does that translate into wanting to do like a really cool movie musical?

BARNES: I’ve always wanted to do that, so there’s no translation necessary. I’ve always wanted to do something like that. It’s just that they don’t come up very often.

Image via Netflix

As someone who was a part of The Punisher, where you played such a complicated and layered character, what’s it like to know that whole world is officially MCU canon now? With the addition of Daredevil, Kingpin and The Punisher into MCU projects, how does it feel to know that your character and what you did with him is officially a part of all of that now, even if it’s after the fact?

BARNES: I felt like it was at the time, to be honest. Marvel was involved. I felt like, “Oh, I get to play a Marvel villain,” which was cool. What channel it was on didn’t really affect my experience of it. I’m just sad that he died because otherwise there could be a little reunion. Charlie Cox is one of my closest pals. We did one of our first jobs together with Stardust, and I like to remind him that I am his daddy.

I feel like you should remind him of that.

BARNES: I do, most every time I see him. And so, that would have been a really fun little reunion thing, if I wasn’t so very, very dead. Why do people want to keep killing me? I don’t think I’m very killable. I didn’t think I had that about me, but apparently I do. I’ve been shot. I’ve been stabbed. They just keep killing me.

They just need to resurrect you to make up for it. You did a pretty big fantasy project, early on in your career, when you did Narnia. Production wise, when it comes to fantasy material and how technology has changed, does it feel like there are any big differences in doing a fantasy project now? Does some of it feel exactly the same while some of it feels completely different? How did Shadow and Bone compare?

BARNES: Honestly, it feels the same to me. The bit that the actor has a preoccupation with are the elements that do feel real and that do feel practical. The things that make you feel most in a fantasy world are when you’re in a location where it feels otherworldly to the city that you live in. If you can have locations and if you can have costumes, which is probably the biggest one, it’s how you feel when you put them on, but also when you look around you, with what you’re taking in visually. The bits that take you out are effects that are not there yet, but you can suspend disbelief quite heavily when you’re in something for months on end, and you’re walking the walk and talking the talk and dressing the dress. Those are the more important things, from an actor’s perspective.

Did you take anything home with you, from playing the Darkling? Do you like to do that, or do you not do that?

BARNES: I have done that with different projects. I’ve got some lovely mementos from things. I’ve got my Narnia sword on the wall and I’ve got a Westworld hat. I’ve got bits. I have my metal hand that we attached, from the second season of Shadow and Bone. I use that as a bookend.

Shadow and Bone is available to stream at Netflix.