The Big Picture

Collider’s Perri Nemiroff sits down with director James Ashcroft and star Geoffrey Rush to discuss
The Rule of Jenny Pen
at Fantastic Fest 2024.

The Rule of Jenny Pen
stars John Lithgow and Rush as two adversaries caught in a deadly game at a care home.
During this interview, Ashcroft and Rush share experiences working together and discuss the joys of horror filmmaking.

From director James Ashcroft, who first rocked the horror community with his feature debut Coming Home in the Dark (2021), comes another Owen Marshall adaptation, The Rule of Jenny Pen, starring stage and screen legends John Lithgow and Geoffrey Rush. The movie celebrated its World Premiere at this year’s Fantastic Fest where Collider’s Perri Nemiroff caught up with Ashcroft and Rush to talk about bringing the short story from page to screen.

In The Rule of Jenny Pen, Judge Stefan Mortensen (Rush) finds himself learning to navigate a new world when a stroke leaves him partially paralyzed and at the mercy of retirement home staff. Things get off to a rocky start for Stefan, who’s uncooperative and stubbornly refuses to befriend the other residents, but then takes an especially dark turn when he finds himself at odds with the supposedly sweet Dave Crealy (Lithgow). Crealy secretly terrorizes the home with his dementia doll and his cruel game, “The Rule of Jenny Pen.”

Ashcroft and Rush sat down with Nemiroff to chat about the making of the movie that Stephen King says is “one of the best” he’s seen this year. They discuss how Ashcroft first dream-cast both Lithgow and Rush 10 years ago, what it was like to work with them on set, and how the movie is different from the original short story. Rush talks about why this was the kind of project he was waiting for, reuniting with Lithgow, and the most joyous moments from production. For all of this and more, check out the full conversation in the video above or you can read the interview transcript below.

‘The Rule of Jenny Pen’: Short Story vs. Feature Film
Image via Adam Martignetti

PERRI NEMIROFF: James, I know this was an adaptation of a short story, and one of my favorite things about adaptations is they give you an opportunity to honor the source material, but there’s also a really exciting opportunity to evolve it via your own voice. What space did you find in the short story that you thought you could bring something to to make the film version uniquely your own?

JAMES ASHCROFT: We’ve been very faithful to the short story. The main configuration was turning the short story, which is from Crealy’s perspective, and shifting it into Mortensen’s perspective, who’s sort of one of the more background characters in the short story. That just allowed for more drama between these two men from different worlds.

Just for fun, did you ever imagine how the tone or vibe of the movie might have changed had you gone the other direction?

ASHCROFT: No. I think it would have been perhaps a more dour perspective. It would have had a grayer palette than the sort of pinky, canned ham/Spam tones that the home had. [Laughs]

GEOFFREY RUSH: And John Lithgow’s eyes.

I have another question about the adaptation process because I was reading that you secured this material 10 years ago. What would you say is the biggest difference between how you pictured this film turning out 10 years ago compared to the finished film everyone will see now?

ASHCROFT: That’s a great question. We always had Geoffrey and John in the back of our minds.

RUSH: I wish you told me that 10 years.

ASHCROFT: Well, it’s like a fine wine. It’s like, “We can wait 10 years before we do this. They’ll still be perfect!” So, it was always there. I mean, the film in my head looks nothing like the film that you end up making. It can’t; it doesn’t exist. But I think it was always pretty clear from the get-go, and it was realized with people, a crew, a wider cast of people that all had pre-existing relationships. So, I think that, if anything, is what has made it such a thrilling film for me.

One more writing question, which admittedly might be a question for Owen [Marshall]. Why the name Jenny Pen?

ASHCROFT: Well, the doll was called, in the short story, Jenny Pen Caro, and it was a gift to Garfield from his granddaughter, and Crealy had shortened it to Jenny Pen, which sort of just blunts it, which feels like a very creepy thing to do.

Geoffrey Rush Was Waiting for Something “Unpredictable”

Geoffrey, when this material first came your way, what was it about it that made you think, “I have something to gain from working on this horror movie that will help me continue to evolve as an actor who’s always honing my craft?”

RUSH: If I had known 10 years ago. I dropped out of the industry for a bit to turn things down because they felt like material that I’d done before, and this was the kind of unpredictable project that I was waiting to land in my lap. I read it and saw Coming Home in the Dark, which I watched with my family, who are all film buffs, and we just sat there kind of gobsmacked. Our jaws were on the ground, going, “I know that he made this in 18 nights for a million dollars in New Zealand.” That’s fast. It got accepted into Cannes, and then COVID closed Cannes, and then it went to Sundance and he became the golden boy in Los Angeles, I think. But he certainly knew the material.

So, we got together on Zoom. I knew on page five. I just said to my agent, “Get me into this film. This is the role.” The whole style of it was just curious. We both come from huge theater backgrounds, James for half of his life and me for half of mine. We both worked at the theater in different countries, and then both got interested or wanted to get into film in some way. There’s just something inherently heightened, not only because of the genre that it touches on — I think it’s a psychological thriller, but it’s really a drama. I didn’t treat it as being, “Oh, I hope there are a lot of jump scares that make this film very popular.” I just thought there was so much more going on in it.

Also, the challenge of, I love tasks with a character. I did a film many years ago called The Tailor of Panama, and John Boorman, the director, said, “I really want you to cut out an entire suit on camera.” You know what I mean? He used it in the beginning, sped up, and I had to learn how to chalk and use the ruler and the shears and all that sort of stuff. I loved learning my sword fights for Pirates [of the Caribbean]. I loved learning to look as though I could play the piano accordion in The Book Thief. And this, I thought, “You’re gonna spend the whole film in a wheelchair. You’re reined in.” But my wheelchair had five little lights on the joystick from speed one to speed five. I knew by the end of the story I wanted to be skillful enough to get up to speed five, even in the most enclosed corridors. [Laughs] They did a blooper reel for the closing wrap party, and it’s mostly me just running down the director, hitting the camera, running into a staircase. They edited me very, very carefully.

I hope you share that blooper reel when the time is right!

RUSH: Yeah, it was fun.

I’ll stick with you for a moment, Geoffrey, to sing James’s praise a little. What is something about James as an actor’s director that you think teed you up for success playing this role?

RUSH: He’s very impish. He’s a very good actor. I kept telling my wife, “James goes into little memetic moments when he’s describing something to you.” And yesterday he was describing an unfortunate situation where his father tripped, and thought, “Oh, the door is open. I’ll just fall out there,” but the plate glass door was closed. [Laughs] And James did his father hitting the wall. So, he likes the visual dynamics of performance. He’d never demonstrate, but he’d never even give you line readings, but he has a wry sense of, “You could be playful on this line. Find some play within the line.” And Mortensen is a man of language, which is diminishing because of his condition.

One of the interviewers this morning pointed out, he said, “Why the poetry in the film?” He wanted to talk about the poetic form and its influence on making this film, and we didn’t really think about it like that, did we? But there’s a big chunk of Dylan Thomas in there, which is like an interior monologue from a man whose brain is fading pretty quickly. I had to use language because I was immobile for most of the film or running into people. [Laughs]

James, I want to give you the opportunity to give some flowers to your leads nows. You said this a little last night, but it’s also in your director’s statement: “People often say, ‘Be wary of meeting your heroes,’ but in this instance, it couldn’t have been further from that.” Do you remember the very first moment with Geoffrey and the very first moment with John that signaled to you, “I did indeed find the perfect creative partners for this film?”

ASHCROFT: The absolute first moments would be seeing Geoffrey in Shine in 1996 and probably seeing John in, like, 1985 in Santa Claus, the movie. Those would be the first.

RUSH: His early work! [Laughs]

ASHCROFT: John’s earlier work. Despots even back then. Those are key moments that I remember in noticing these actors and having that sense of, “I want to be close to that.” Initially, as an actor, “I want to be like them.” And then I’m always looking for any material that I do, or Eli [Kent] and I do — we come from acting backgrounds — we’re always sniffing out good characters, secretly. Characters we would have wanted to have played or roles for actors that we want to work with. So when we started developing The Rule of Jenny Pen over 10 years ago, Geoffrey and John were always in my mind for these roles.

What about when you hit set with them? Was there anything they did early on that made you stop and go, “Yes, they’re perfect for these roles, but they’re also perfect collaborators for me as a director?”

ASHCROFT: I got that before getting on set from both of them. The engagement in the script and the tone, the shared language, and reference points that we all had. Going through drama school, one of my key teachers came from the Lecoq School in France, which Geoffrey attended, so there was this shared language. There’s overlap there already. And that, for a director going onto a set, that’s incredibly empowering. The shoot for me, even though it was hard work, was easy in that it was always pleasurable. It was always very playful, always very fluid. I know that’s an experience I can’t necessarily count on always having. But yeah, it was like playtime every day.

Geoffrey, I did want to ask you about working with John. Is there anything he did on this set that made you stop and go, “My god, I knew you were talented, but I never realized you’d be capable of doing that ?”

RUSH: I worked with him. We did a film for HBO called The Life and Death of Peter Sellers, and he was playing Blake Edwards to my Peter Sellers. That was 21 years ago. And I’ve sort of run into John a lot in New York. I was doing a play on Broadway there in 2009, and I got a prize, the Drama Desk for making a Broadway debut, and it was a breakfast. Everyone from all the shows came — Elton John was there; he got a Gong for Billy Elliot — and John presented me with that award, and I went, “Oh, this is so cool!” And then we met at the Emmys at some point. I was nominated for playing Albert Einstein [in Genius], and he was nominated for Winston Churchill in The Crown. So, we touch base a fair bit.

I know how John works. He can really claim his territory. He squirts his scent all over the set. [Laughs] No, he doesn’t. But he did say to me, “I’ve had some teeth made,” and I went, “You’re my man.” You know what I mean? I said, “I’ve been reading up on strokes and all this sort of stuff,” and he said, “And I’ve got gray lenses.” I went, “That’s gonna be great,” because you know it’s John, but suddenly when you look in his eyes, you go, “You’re just otherworldly.” The teeth and that were his two little master strokes for bringing the character into focus, so he didn’t have to act hard. It was just creepy.

And there was a discovery I made about the book. Owen, the writer, it’s like Dickens can create great names for characters — Uriah Heep or Mr. Macawber. I thought “Crealy” was really creepy smashed together. “Crealy.” It’s a nasty name.

Crafting a Tyrant for ‘The Rule of Jenny Pen’
“Jenny is sort of Hitler’s mustache, she’s Stalin’s sickle, she’s just the dictator’s totem.”
Image via Shudder

James, there’s one particular thing I was wondering if there was much meaning in. Why does Crealy take Jenny Pen off at certain moments, but not others? Did you and John map that out at all or is it more about feeling out a scene on set in the moment?

ASHCROFT: Yeah, we did have to map it out, and we did discuss it quite a bit because there’s continuity and all these things, and then, “I need you to use this hand on this side of the camera and everything like that.” The agreement we came to with Crealy was that Jenny is sort of Hitler’s mustache, she’s Stalin’s sickle, she’s just the dictator’s totem. And then there are those moments where Crealy is just enjoying himself. He’s drunk on a moment, a personal moment. So, the assault scene in the day lounge, for example, or needing to try and get the card back from from Eunice Joyce. So it was always at the end of the day, it’s Crealy. The tyrant of the piece is Crealy, and it’s his disguise as much as a weapon, a psychological weapon, that he uses.

I wanted to go back to the idea of play. Can you tell me which scene changed the most from script to screen because of that willingness to play? Perhaps a time when you found unexpected magic in the moment?

RUSH: We did the scene where he sort of terrorizes me by brutally kicking me. There was one little wisp of a stage direction in there. Because Mortensen is very aware that his brain occasionally shuts down, or he’s in one room and suddenly he’s not, he’s in another room, and he’s going, “Am I blacking out? Am I losing focus and control?” And so he was very aware that Crealy would say, “You just disappeared for a moment here, didn’t you,” taunting me, catching me out. I went, “No, no, no, no, no.” Then the script said, “They both have a little chuckle together,” as though we are two mates in a bar having a drink, and it wasn’t a motivated thing. And we just went [nervously chuckles]. It’s nervous laughter. We did that take and then James said, “Just let the laughter continue,” and it went hysterical and really dangerous. I cried while I was laughing. I felt so disturbed tears sprang out of my eyes, and I said, “Is that too much?” He said, “Look, we might use that, we might use some of it, but it’s great to have another dimension into the scene.”

ASHCROFT: That was a significant day. I remember that very well. I think as a director, though, I was afforded a lot of opportunity from the actors for moments of exploration like that, which was a real luxury of going, “Let’s sit in a moment. Let’s stretch it out, or condense and pressurize.” Being able to have actors who are comfortable and have faith in you and the game to do that and explore, that’s a real luxury in terms of what you bring into the edit.

I wanted to make sure to highlight your editor because another thing I read is that she’s not a “yes” person, and I think that’s a beautiful thing in filmmaking. Can you give me an example of a time when Gretchen [Peterson] challenged you in the edit, and something wound up getting even stronger because of it?

ASHCROFT: I absolutely love Gretchen’s work. This was the first time we worked together. We knew each other socially prior. But I don’t come in and have a clear sort of autocratic view of how a scene should go. I want to see the scene mapped out, and then we chase the feeling of, “Where’s it alive? Where is it most potent?” I don’t like working with “yes” people. I like people who are chasing the same thing as me because then a third quality starts to emerge, which is the thing that neither of us individually held that we both found together. So, you ask was there a specific moment? On a daily basis, yes, there was.

These Are the Classic Films That Influenced ‘The Rule of Jenny Pen’
“John’s probably more of a Joan Crawford to my Bette Davis.”
Image via Warner Bros.Pictures

I wanted to make sure to end our conversation on two particular questions. They’re both from your director’s statement. James, you said, “I don’t shy away from what others call ‘dark material.’ I think it’s important to work with challenging material in the arts because it allows us to unpack some of those more tricky conversations that can be hard to have via other avenues.” To tease how this movie does that for our viewers, can you tell me a little bit about how The Rule of Jenny Pen does that?

RUSH: In our first Zoom chat, we got to talking, and I loved the script. The script was so vivid and challenging in the tasks that are presented. And then I think we talked about favorite films. I said, ‘I’d love to know what your favorite films are.” He sent me maybe a list of about 80, I think. It was quite substantial, wasn’t it? And Venn diagram overlap. All of those are on my list. So we sort of zeroed in on Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest because it’s a film set in an institutionalized space, like Cuckoo’s Nest. And Baby Jane is such an eccentric film that’s got ugliness and pain and nastiness and all sorts of things in it. And they became reference points. I think John’s probably more of a Joan Crawford to my Bette Davis. I’m not sure. He’s a big Joan Crawford, isn’t he? He’s a tall Joan Crawford.

No, we wanted to keep that in the back of our minds, that it is Grand Guignol. It’s the hot and cold of the grotesque and the macabre, but also, hopefully, psychologically, very true, very real. Because with a set that’s got a lot of septuagenarians and octogenarians on it, you’re in the real space. Do you know what I mean? And I said, “How are you going to cast those people?” And he said, “I’m gonna ask all of my mentors.” They’re all his teachers from 20 years ago in the theater when they were in their 40s and 50s and whatever. They all came back and just said, “We’ll go with you.”

There was a gorgeous young woman in the costume department, Daisy [Chiara Marcuzzi], who’s Italian, but she’d been brought up in the north of England. I always found her curious because I thought, “I can’t place where you’re from.” She was very sweet. The day they filmed the dance lesson, she was just sobbing at the monitor, watching Irene [Wood]. She claimed that moment. She just went into its complete state of Gene Pitney bliss, painting heaven. She’s got little shoes like an eight year old that sparkle and light up and everything, and Daisy just sobbed, and I thought, “Wow, this is really beautiful.” And it’s shot so low. They’re all so low in the water. Then John comes in and just fills negative space, and it’s really freaky.

What a beautiful quality to have in your film, that it almost functions as a little time capsule in a sense for your journey in the industry. That’s amazing.

ASHCROFT: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s very important when you’re making a film, the stronger the relationship with your cast and your crew — many of the crew were people who came over from Coming Home in the Dark, as well. Sam [Spicer], our sound man, his first job in the industry when he was 21 was my first acting job in the industry when I was 15.

RUSH: You were a child star!

ASHCROFT: Well, I was a child actor for a moment. [Laughs]

The Cast Found Joy in a “Horrible Moment” on Set
Image via Adam Martignetti

Here’s the question that I really wanted to end on, because I also think this is very important. It’s something you said in your director’s statement when talking about how Geoffrey and John work. “They love to laugh. They enjoy themselves and relish everything they do no matter how extreme.” I’m gonna keep this simple. For each of you, can you tell me which day on this set brought you the most joy?

RUSH: Wow. Every day had something going for it. We spent four weeks on location in an old resort, and that became the home. So, for all the corridors and all the externals, we were doing that, and then the last two weeks, we went back to Wellington, and they built our rooms in the studio so they could pull walls out and control the shots and mostly the closer dialogue, the stuff that went on behind closed doors. I really liked when we had everyone on set. So, the dining room scenes. [Laughs] Peter had to be talking to me — he didn’t have much dialogue in the film, but James said, “I want you to explain to Stefan how centrifugal force will get you in the craft to Mars,” and this guy just improvised. He was so detailed, and I didn’t have to act. He just said, “Be intrigued,” and this guy just totally captivated me, and he wouldn’t stop. I thought, “He is a bit crazy.” There wasn’t any acting.

ASHCROFT: No, he did go there. He went there very quickly.

RUSH: So that kind of thing would happen. Then there’d be the discipline of the wonderful older actor who was a mentor to a lot of people — the guy who bursts into flames. Now, that was very disciplined, the day before, how the stunt would work. The stunt guy would be there. He’d do the signals, the safe word, or whatever, and then he said to me, “I just want you to now scream.” And you go, “Oh dear, this is like drama school. I can’t move because I’m still on the stick, I’m out of the chair. It’s the only time I think I stand up in the whole film, and I just saw this guy burning. It kept going, and he said, “Just keep screaming,” and I must have screamed for maybe seven or eight minutes. I thought, “He’s gonna choose the best bit. I don’t know.” [Laughs]

But what was funny is the young third AD on the film, Rosie [Vavasour], was just cacking herself. At the end of the take, she said, “That is the funniest thing I think I’ve ever seen on a set, a man just screaming.” And she said, “I can tell inside you were laughing a bit.” I wasn’t, and I knew in the corner of my eye that she was going, “Oh my god, is this overacting or what?” It was hilarious! It was a talking point.

Meanwhile, it plays very effectively in the film. I feel like that’s the first really big and impactful gut punch that signals to the audience, “Brace yourself because this is what you’re in for.”

RUSH: Yeah. I saw a still of that early on, and I went, “Oh my god, is this the film we’re in?” There’s an old man burning, and this guy is just freaking, going, “I can’t help him.” It’s a horrible moment. He gave us good things to do.

James, do you have an example of a moment of joy on this set?

ASHCROFT: Many. I think that the image that I will hold onto for a very long time would be when we finished when we were on set on location at the hotel. We’d finished for the day, and then I’d go grab a shower, come down to the bar, and do all my work with my HODs. We’d sit in the corner of the bar, and watching the circle of actors every evening, coming together and reminiscing, reconnecting, “Remember when we did that show in Auckland in 1983?”

RUSH: They reminded me so much of older actors that I’ve worked with in Australia who were my mentors. We’re of a generation of actors who enjoy a drink, so we’d meet every night and just tell stories.

I very much understand that.

ASHCROFT: It was beautiful just seeing an ensemble like that and seeing how welcoming they were of Geoffrey and John, because these are people who have been working together for a decade. So, just that image there.

The Rule of Jenny Pen will be available to stream on Shudder in 2025.