The Big Picture

Collider’s Perri Nemiroff sits down with
Millers in Marriage
writer-director-star Edward Burns at TIFF 2024.

Millers in Marriage
explores midlife challenges, marriage, and professional success with authentic characters.
In this interview, Burns shares insights on casting, working with friends, mentorship, and microbudget filmmaking challenges.

Edward Burns is an underrated and prolific auteur filmmaker born out of the early ’90s indie school. Bursting onto the scene in 1995 with The Brothers McMullen, Burns took home the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance that year, as well as the Independent Spirit Award for Best First Feature. Since then, Burns has written, produced, and directed a grand total of fourteen feature films. His latest, Millers in Marriage, had its world premiere at this year’s Toronto International Film Festival.

Millers in Marriage weaves a tale of three middle-aged couples struggling with their marriages and the conviction of fidelity, their professional ambitions, and carving out a path for themselves in this new phase of life. The film is inspired by Burns’ desire to make a movie for midlife adults who could recognize themselves on screen via characters played by Patrick Wilson, Minnie Driver, Julianna Margulies, Benjamin Bratt, Morena Baccarin, Gretchen Mol, and more.

Producer, writer, director, and co-star Burns stopped by the Collider interview studio at the Cinema Center at MARBL to talk with Perri Nemiroff about the nature of the business and art as he and his peer group reach their 50s. They also discuss the challenges and benefits of microbudget films, the cast’s moving performances, and the personal importance of Steven Spielberg, Tom Hanks and Burns’ time on Saving Private Ryan. You can watch the full interview from TIFF in the video above or read the conversation transcript below.

‘Millers in Marriage’ Explores Relationships and Realities of Empty-Nesters
Image via TIFF

PERRI NEMIROFF: I’ve seen Millers in Marriage, but because it’s a festival premiere, our audience will likely be learning about it through TIFF, so would you mind doing the honors and giving a brief synopsis?

EDWARD BURNS: It’s a look at three married couples who are all in their 50s. They happen to be related. Julianna Margulies, Gretchen Mol, and myself play siblings, the Millers, and we find ourselves in our mid-fifties as empty-nesters. Our respective marriages now are going through some changes and some reevaluations, and some big decisions have to be made about what you want the next chapter of your life to look like.

I always love hearing about how stories evolve along the way. What would you say is the biggest difference between draft one of the screenplay and what everyone will see in the final cut of the film?

BURNS: Originally, it centered around three sisters-in-law. It was a while ago, but I guess Morena [Baccarin]’s character would have been the third sister. That, at some point, I changed, and I can’t really remember why.

I find that stuff so interesting. One of my biggest fantasies is seeing a cast return to a film they already made, but having them all swap roles and seeing how the narrative changes.

BURNS: Oh, I love that idea! That would be interesting.

Edward Burns Spotlights Relatable Troubles in Business and Art
Image by Photagonist at TIFF

Of all the characters you wrote here, which were you most enthusiastic about exploring, but then I also want to know which one wound up being more creatively fulfilling to dig into and flesh out than you ever could have imagined at the start?

BURNS: One of the themes explored in the film based on conversations I’ve had with my friends who are in the business and in the arts as we hit our mid-fifties is, what do you do when you’re at this place, if your career has plateaued, or you’re finding yourself with nothing left to say? Or if you do have something to say, does anybody care? Can you get your novel published? Will the gallery show your art? Can you get your film financed? My peer group, a lot of us, are all wrestling with those questions. So, there are three characters who are all dealing with a version of that, that, quite honestly, at some point in my life I’ve had to deal with.

I guess the one that hit closest to home — it’s interesting, I was gonna say Campbell Scott’s character, but I’ve never really suffered from writer’s block. Maybe the character that I play, even though I play a contemporary artist. There is that moment where he’s just wondering, can he still find an audience? That’s one of the deals; he’s no longer getting his work shown in a gallery, and I think for any filmmaker, that is the great fear — will the audience still show up?

You mentioned you don’t suffer from writer’s block. Have you ever encountered actor’s block with a scene, a time when you just couldn’t crack it, and then tell me how you wound up finding a way in?

BURNS: A funny thing, and actors will talk about this all the time, sometimes it’s the nickel-dime, the small scene that you have where you have one line that you just kind of can’t crack because you’re focused so much on that. I know in Saving Private Ryan, I had a scene like that where it’s a long oner, and everyone had a little piece to do, and it kind of ends up on me with the last line, and I effed it up a number of times. So, yeah, acting is a weird thing. Sometimes you can get in your head about it. You asked, how do you work your way through it? You just kind of have to get out of your head sometimes.

‘Millers in Marriage’ Tackles the “Enormous Tininess of Real Life”
Image by Photagonist at TIFF

You have an epic ensemble here and so many rich characters to offer them. When you were casting this, which character was the easiest to find the perfect fit for, where the right actor came to mind immediately, but then I also want the opposite as well, someone who took a little leg work or thinking to really find the right match for?

BURNS: I’d say it’s a toss-up between Gretchen Mol and Julianna Margulies because both of them read the script early on. I can’t remember exactly if we made an offer or if we heard from their representatives, but there was such enthusiasm right out of the gate for their respective characters. Julianna was talking about how you can’t underestimate the desire for actors to play real people with real shit going on in their characters’ lives. That, I think, is why we were able to put together this ensemble. Because especially when we were younger, in our 20s and 30s, getting to play the lead. As you age, you then become a character who is there for one purpose: to move the plot forward. To help the hero achieve their goals or to get in the way of the hero’s goals. This film offered all of us an opportunity to sink our teeth into real people going through real situations and the enormous tininess of real life, right? The little tiny things that we’re all wrestling with. I think that’s what they gravitated towards.

Because of that draw to the film, is there anyone who popped up with interest in joining the ensemble that surprised you? Someone you hadn’t thought about but then wanted to jump in?

BURNS: I think Patrick Wilson. I had worked with Patrick before, friends with him, I sent him the script saying, “Hey, there are a couple of parts available. Would you ever consider this?” Because, again, it’s an ensemble, so it’s not huge parts. And I was kind of surprised about the character that he wanted to play, Scott, because he’s the angry drunk.

It stressed me out way more than I thought it would to see him play mean like that.

BURNS: And he said, “I’ve never done that before. I really want to.” And I think that goes back to the thing we were talking about before, the opportunity to deal with real people and real relationships.

‘Millers in Marriage’ Is an “All-Star Line-Up”

Let’s get into directing your actors now. The first thing that I’m a bit obsessed with when it comes to acting is how there are a million routes to take. There are a million different techniques out there. Every technique is the right technique as long as it is your technique. Can you tell me two actors in this ensemble who have polar opposite approaches to the work where it called for something different from you as an actor’s director?

BURNS: I would say Ben Bratt is an actor who probably likes to talk through the scenes beforehand, as does Patrick, actually. Patrick is more like after every take, he kind of wants to explore. He’ll find something in the take, and then he’ll say, “Hey, I did something a little there. I kind of dig what was happening. Would you be okay if we explored that a little bit more?” So, that was fun for me. And again, I’d worked with Patrick before, so I knew he kind of likes that.

Then I would say Julianna is such a professional. She’s so good. She comes in, she has some questions before we start shooting that she and I kind of talked through about who the character is and where we thought she was going. But that was an amazing thing to just watch her on the monitor and just see the subtle little choices she makes from take to take. I haven’t gotten to work with an ensemble like this. I’ve been very fortunate to work with some great actors, but this was like an all-star lineup, so it made my job very easy. There were a lot of times when I was just sort of sitting back, kind of just enjoying watching the scene unfold. And Campbell Scott, too. Campbell and Julianna together, that’s interesting because they came up with some stuff that I don’t know that I saw in the screenplay.

We talked about, like, “You’re going to know that character better than I know them,” because I’m worrying about everything else during the course of the making of the film. You know, the color of the couch, the color of the walls. Can we make the day? Once you hand them the script and the character is theirs, that’s the only thing the actor is focused on. So, I always encourage and love when the actors come to me, like, “Hey, I think my character is a little bit more this than you had thought in the early days when we first met.”

To get a little more specific with that, can you tell me something about your own screenplay that wound up becoming more powerful than you ever realized it was based on what one of them brought out of it?

BURNS: Benjamin Bratt brought a vulnerability to that character that I didn’t see in the screenplay. Originally, I kind of was thinking this was just a guy who had some bitterness and some anger that his career never happened. He brought such a sadness to some of those scenes that was really touching that I, again, didn’t anticipate. And I think Julianna’s character, the idea that she was a little icier than I originally thought. I can’t remember if we discussed it with her, but like Mary Tyler Moore’s character in Ordinary People. For whatever reason, she’s just a little closed-off, and there are a couple of moments with her and Gretchen where we played with it, and I was like, “Let’s kind of lean into that a little bit more, that you are not available for emotional comfort.”

How Steven Spielberg Influenced Edward Burns’ Direction
“We were all convinced that we were gonna get fired.”
Image via DreamWorks

Can you tell me something that a director did for you in the past that you appreciated and now bring to your actors, but then I also want to know something that you wished more directors gave to their actors that now you incorporate on your own sets?

BURNS: It’s kind of the same thing. I made three movies before I got to act in Saving Private Ryan. As a young kid coming out of film school, I thought the director needed to be directing the actors, so I probably did a little too much after calling cut on every take. Talking to the actor is giving them some notes, suggestions, things like that. On Private Rya n, I’d say we worked for about a week before Steven [Spielberg] gave any of us any notes. He would do about two takes and say, “Okay, that’s great. Moving on.” And we were all convinced that we were gonna get fired because he must hate us because why isn’t he giving us any any notes?

Finally, I forget the scene we were doing, he asked for a third take and a fourth and a fifth. We ended up doing, like, nine takes. So at lunch, we went to him and said, “What happened today? Why did you, today, give us some feedback?” And he goes, “Well, because today you didn’t know what the hell you were doing.” And then he went on to explain. He’s like, “Look, I cast you guys for a reason. I assume you’re gonna show up to work prepared, and I assume that you’ve given a lot of thought to who your characters are, and I don’t wanna get in your way.” Especially with young actors, one little note can get you started thinking about, “Oh my god…” Any of the insecurities that all of us actors have.

That changed my approach moving forward. I give everyone about three takes before I chime in with anything, especially with an ensemble piece when you’re doing a scene with five or six actors. People warm up at a different pace. So I figure, before getting into somebody’s head, give them three opportunities to explore, to play, to find it. So, that’s what I do now. And a lot of times, really, some of my notes can just be, “Can we go a little faster? Can we slow down? A little louder. A little softer.” With a cast like this, quite honestly, there’s very little directing.

I wanted to move into the microbudget aspect of this film because microbudget movies are a big part of the reason why I love coming to festivals and discovering the things that may not have large backing behind them. I find them to be some of the most creatively fulfilling experiences for me as a viewer. You’ve been doing this for a very long time. The industry has changed considerably, especially in recent years. Do you find the state of Hollywood now more or less accepting of the microbudget filmmaking format, and do you think there are more or less possibilities for them after they’re made?

BURNS: I don’t know. I’ve made, as you know, a number of microbudget movies. This one, we had $6 million, so not so micro, but by Hollywood standards, a very low, low, low budget.

Especially with how high certain numbers are nowadays.

BURNS: Even for a contemporary drama like this. So, I don’t really know. The business has never been easy. When you make films like this, I’ve never had an easy go of it getting any of the films financed. So that’s why, sometimes, luckily, we’ve had films where we thought it was a $15 million budget, and it went down to $6, and we made it for $6. We had other ones we thought were $15, and we’ve had to go down to $150,000 and do with a completely unknown cast and a two-man crew. So, the business has always been tricky. It’s always been hard to get your film sold, and it’s always been hard to find an audience.

I think today, that’s the hardest part is finding an audience just because there are so many options. People just don’t go to the theater the way they used to. We don’t have as many arthouse theaters or specialty houses like we used to, so that part is tough. Now, granted there are more options available for streaming and things like that, but because there are so many options available, I know a lot of films just get lost and slip between the cracks. It’s tough.

Image by Photagonist at TIFF

Can you tell me something about your approach to maximizing those resources that has stayed the same since the beginning, but then also something new that Millers in Marriage demanded?

BURNS: We always used to come up with our lists of compromises. We used to say, “If we’re gonna make a film with any kind of real budget, someone’s gonna cut us a check. We’re now in a partnership with those folks who cut the check, whether it’s a studio or whatever.” So with that partnership means there are gonna be certain compromises you have to make. They’re going to have a say in the casting, in the title, in the script, et cetera. So, are you comfortable with those compromises? The micro-budget compromises are a little different. You can cast whoever you want, you’re not gonna get any notes on the script, you can use whatever kind of music you want, but you also have to know you’re not gonna get the bigger stars, and without the bigger stars, there’s a chance your movie won’t get sold or seen by as many people. So depending on the screenplay, you have to decide, what compromises are you willing to make? Is this a story where the script and your vision of who you see in it is so locked that you cannot have a partner? Then you go micro-budget. If you feel like it’s a story you need to tell that needs to reach a bigger audience, then you have to go in knowing, “I’m in a partnership, and there are some things I’m going to have to potentially give up.”

With this film, I think we’re very lucky in that we found a great partner at Republic Pictures and this guy, Dan Cohen. Given it’s a $6 million budget, it isn’t so big that there was really much input creatively. It was just like, “Who do you like?” We said the actors we’re hoping to get, he says, “If you can get them, we’ll cut the check.” So this was sort of — knock on wood — one of the great creative experiences I’ve had, from those early meetings on about the screenplay with Dan and Republic, all the way through today and getting to premiere here.

Edward Burns Dreams of Working With Tom Hanks Again
“Tom Hanks was a mentor to everyone.”
Image via DreamWorks Pictures

You’ve worked with so many of the best of the best as far as actors go. I feel bad asking this because there are so many options out there, but is there a bucket list collaborator, whether it’s someone established that we know well, or maybe someone newer that you’ve seen more recently that made you say, “That’s a person I want to work with?”

BURNS: Again, I was very lucky, right? I was a young kid on the set of Private Ryan, I got to work with Steven, and he still is like a mentor to me on my filmmaking side. Tom Hanks was, for all of us — and again, it was funny, he was only 40 when we made that film — really a mentor to everyone, and led by example as to how you behave on set, how you show up to work prepared, how you treat your director, your collaborator, but also how you treat PAs and everything. So, my dream would be to be able to work with Tom again because it was such a special experience, and I was a kid at the time.

Edward Burns Talks Golf, Ireland, and ‘Finnegan’s Foursome.’
Image by Photagonist at TIFF

You do have something else coming up that I really wanted to ask about because I’m a big golf fan. Finnegan’s Foursome — how is that going? Are you able to tell me who you cast in those roles and if they had to be golfers?

BURNS: It went great. We just came back from Ireland two weeks ago. It was really a special experience. It’s the story of an Irish American family whose father was an Irish-born golf professional, who moved to the States in the ‘50s. He was a teaching pro, and the family has an annual golf outing called the Finnegan Foursome that they play every year. It is a comedy, but the patriarch, our golf pro, has a heart attack on the tee box when his grandson hits a hole-in-one and everybody’s celebrating. His wish is to have his ashes brought back to Ireland to be distributed at the family farm where he grew up, the beach where he proposed to their mother, and his two favorite golf courses in Ireland, and he wants the tournament to continue on without him.

So, me and Brian d’Arcy James play the brothers. Brian is in Millers, as well, and I’ve worked with Brian a bunch of times. He is so funny in this movie. And then his daughter is played by Erica Hernández, who was in my show Bridge and Tunnel. She’s a great actress, super funny, and she has a scene where she has to sing “The Parting Glass.” She’s got a great voice but could not play golf, so she had to do pretty extensive training. What we did with her was we got her a golf pro and were like, “Don’t let her hit a ball. Learn how to properly swing.” And she had some dance training. So we looked at it like, if you’re gonna learn how to fight for a film, you would not get in the ring and actually make contact; you’d first learn proper movement. So we did that, and her swing looks gorgeous. Brian Muller, an actor who’s also in Bridge and Tunnel, plays my son, and he’s about a six, so he’s a legit golfer.

That’s a wild inciting incident. I like that. I was wondering if it was gonna lean more into the comedy of the rest of the lineage not being as pro.

BURNS: We’re not as pro. The whole thing is about, like, given that he was a golf pro and neither one of his sons had his swing, we have different feelings about our father and how he felt about the fact that we weren’t as good as he was.

One more question about this one. What is your personal greatest strength and weakness as a golfer?

BURNS: Weakness is getting off the box. I can hit it far, and I don’t have a consistent miss. So, I can hook it, I can slice it. I would say probably my short game is the best part of my game, and I put a lot of work into that.

Special thanks to this year’s partners of the Cinema Center x Collider Studio at TIFF 2024 including presenting Sponsor Range Rover Sport as well as supporting sponsors Peoples Group financial services, poppi soda, Don Julio Tequila, Legend Water and our venue host partner Marbl Toronto. And also Roxstar Entertainment, our event producing partner and Photagonist Canada for the photo and video services.