The Big Picture

Collider’s Steve Weintraub speaks with Matt Reeves ahead of The Penguin’s Max premiere.

The Penguin
follows Oswald Cobb’s evolution from a mid-level gangster to a city kingpin in Gotham.

The Penguin
ties into
The Batman Part II
, exploring the dark origins of key characters in Gotham City.

Director Matt Reeves has become one of the most sought-after cinematic creators of the past two decades. Reeves updated the found footage genre for our post-9/11 world, bringing immense scale and even larger imagination. He continued the Planet of the Apes Caesar Trilogy, making Caesar and Koba as dimensional and full of character as any evolved ape has ever been on-screen. It’s not shocking that his take on Gotham in The Batman is one of audiences’ favorites. His hard-nosed, gritty, noir style captured the hearts of fans around the world. Now, Reeves is unleashing the next chapter of his self-proclaimed “Batman Epic Crime Saga” in the form of the HBO limited series, The Penguin.

Following the events of The Batman, Oswald Cobb — a.k.a. The Penguin, played by Colin Farrell, makes a play to seize the reins of the crime world in Gotham. Seeing a clear power void, this limited series shows Oswald’s evolution from mid-level gangster to city kingpin. The Penguin also stars Cristin Milioti, Rhenzy Feliz, Carmen Ejogo, Mark Strong, and Michael Kelly.

Collider’s own Steve Weintraub had the opportunity to speak with Reeves and delve deep into his Batman lore. In this exclusive interview, which you can check out in the video above or in the transcript below, Reeves answers tons of questions about The Batman sequels, spin-offs, Prime Video’s Batman: Caped Crusader, as well as discusses the classic films and creative co-workers that inspired the DNA of The Batman.

Colin Farrell is a Force of Nature in ‘The Penguin’
Image via Max

COLLIDER: It must be very tough to talk about a show that is awesome and everyone must love.

MATT REEVES: [Laughs] Yeah, it’s terrible. It’s exciting! We worked on it for a long time. You’re always worried about how something is going to be received, but so far the reception has been really good. I will say the one thing that’s not surprising to me — one thing I knew even going in and certainly knew as we were making the show — is Colin is a force of nature. He’s so extraordinary and so special. And what’s exciting is so is the cast around him. Everybody is so incredible together. There’s something that happened when we started exploring that character and he put the makeup on. It was like something clicked for him and was released in him. He becomes this character in a way, unlike anything I’ve ever kind of seen before. I knew at least people would be excited about that because he’s so special.

I wanna start this by saying: Holy shit is this show good. But before we get into The Penguin , I do have a few other things I wanna touch on.

Will There Be a Third Season of ‘Batman Caped Crusader?’
Image via Prime Video

A lot of people, like Collider, loved Batman: Caped Crusader .

REEVES: Thank you. I’m so glad!

With the success of the show, has anyone brought up the idea of a third season?

REEVES: There are all kinds of metrics by which that is landed upon. It’s based on first-month performance, and those are meetings we have yet to have. We’re crossing our fingers, and we hope so. We’re deep into the second season. We hope there’ll be a third, but we just don’t know yet.

For people who don’t realize, you’re already making the second season. Where are you in the second season? Do you think that people will see it next year?

REEVES: Gosh, I don’t know what the date is, but we’re in the midst of animatics. The episodes have all been written and we’re underway in terms of starting to realize the show. You begin with animatics, and then it flushes out. It’s exciting. We’re deep into it. That was actually the understanding when we came to Amazon Prime, the shows for the first season had already been written and were deep into animation. They were basically coming into a show where that first season, they knew, was essentially already completed. They knew we’d be going into a second. They said, “Yeah, we want you to come here and do this.” That was that.

The third season really will come down to, I think we should know in the next few weeks. To be honest with you, this is all kind of new to me, too. I’m super proud of what Bruce [Timm] and the writers did. I’m really proud of that show. We’re really excited about it. I’m glad there are some fans out there. That’s awesome.

Do you think Season 2 will release in 2025, or do you think it could be as long as 2026?

REEVES: Gosh, I don’t know. I don’t wanna give the wrong information because I’m not exactly sure when the trajectory takes us to. I would think it would be sooner. I think it would be 2025 and not 2026. But I don’t actually have the answer to that.

‘The Batman Part II’ Expects To Begin Shooting Early 2025
Image via Warner Bros.

You know how much I loved The Batman. I just want to emphasize how much I love that film to anyone who’s watching. Where are you in the writing process of the sequel?

REEVES: We are finishing up. Mattson [Tomlin] and I, we’re at it every day. We’re getting very close. We’ve given big portions of it to DC already and they’ve read it. They’re super excited and we want to be able to gear up early next year and shoot the movie next year. We’re getting close. It’s very exciting.

When do you think you’re actually starting to film? Is it March? April?

REEVES: I’m not sure. I would think it’s gonna be sometime in the first half of next year.

Will it be called The Batman Part II ?

REEVES: Yeah, it’s called The Batman Part II.

How ‘The Batman’ Evolved Into ‘The Penguin’
Image via Max

A long time ago we spoke about The Batman and you told me you initially came up with the idea of a trilogy for these movies. Is that still the plan?

REEVES: That is still the plan in my mind. Yes, that is still the plan.

One of the reasons the first one is so good is because it’s clear you have a path you’re walking down, you’re not just making it up as you go. You finish the first film, you come up with The Penguin. The end of The Penguin ties into The Batman Part II. How much have you actually figured out The Batman Part II and The Batman Part III ? How much is it sticking towards that path you originally came up with?

REEVES: It’s sticking very closely to the path, but what I would say is that things kind of shifted. When we came up with the idea to do Penguin, I had always intended to continue Penguin’s story and wanted to tell this story of his beginning of rise to power. Because we know he’s introduced in The Batman as a mid-level, sort of overlooked, mocked figure who’s not yet in anyone’s eyes the kingpin we come to know him as in the lore. That was deliberate. Whereas it wasn’t Batman’s origin story, I wanted the origin stories of these other characters of the Rogues Gallery. That story was initially what was going to be the entrée into the next movie. We were talking about what I call The Batman Epic Crime Saga to [CEO of HBO & Max] Casey Blois and [HBO Max Head of Originals] Sarah Aubrey. We were talking about these different aspects of the show and what we wanted to do. One of the things that Casey said was, “God, I’m really excited about what you’re doing in the movies, too. We’d love you to do something in the series with one of these marquee characters. Don’t hoard. Don’t save everything just for the theatrical experience.” And I said, “Well, let me tell you what I wanted to do as the next leg of this story, as an entrée into the next movie.” Basically in the wake of what’s happened at the end of the first movie, Carmine Falcone is dead. He’s had power for 20 years and now in the power vacuum, as Selena says to him, it’s gonna get bloody. And this is the moment where, as Rob [Pattenson] as Batman is narrating at the end of the movie, some people will seize the chance to grab anything they can, and that is Oz. It was like imagining, for that story, almost like a Scarface story, like a gangster story. Casey was like, “That’s the series we want. We want that series.” And I was like, “Oh! Okay.”

Then everything had to be slightly recalibrated so we’re still in the same path we were on. The idea was to pull that out and to find a way to tell that story and have it begin a week after the movie. Then tell the beginning of him beginning this journey toward becoming the kingpin. Then ending that story as it related to where we wanted to tell what was going to be the main story for The Batman Part II, which Mattson and I are now writing. I would say it’s sort of a shifting. Which, by the way, I don’t know anyone that doesn’t, in the course of writing anything, end up having to make alterations and shift things around. It’s still the same trajectory of story, but the entry point for where Oz is is now he’s further along than he would have been if we had started that story in the movie instead of by doing a series.

How much time passes through the events of The Penguin ? When you first start, it’s a week after the first movie…

REEVES: It’s fairly compressed. In the movie, the election day was November 7th. This takes place a week after that, after Bella Reál has been elected but is now Mayor-Elect Bella Reál. We’re in the aftermath of all that flooding. The wealthier neighborhoods, of course, have gotten the aid they needed, and in Crown Point — and other areas of desperation — they’re not getting the help they need. That is the void Oz steps into when he decides to make his moves. The story plays out, really, over the next weeks that take you toward the end of the year. I don’t think we quite get to play Christmas or New Year’s, but we’re getting there.

Exploring and Expanding the ‘Epic Batman Crime Saga’
“It is something that’s deepened by watching all of it”
Image via Warner Bros.

This might be too much information, I’m just gonna ask — how much time will pass between the end of The Penguin and the beginning of The Batman Part II ?

REEVES: That’s something I can’t reveal at this point. But I will tell you, you are leaving the Penguin story in a place where Oz will be entering into that story with things that some groundwork has been laid for it by the end of the series.

The one thing is, there’s gonna be a lot of people that go to see The Batman Part II and will not have seen The Penguin series.

REEVES: That won’t matter. Here’s the thing, I think that in terms of it being an epic crime saga, it is something that’s deepened by watching all of it. But the truth of the matter is that each one, of course, needs to live on its own. So The Batman lives on its own, The Penguin series lives on its own, The Batman Part II will live on its own, but it will be deepened. You won’t have to be prepared for what happened, you’ll just understand that that’s the entry point of where this character is coming in. The events that unfold are unfolding in a way where it’s not like, “Oh, gee, I needed to see those eight episodes of that show or I don’t understand what’s going on.” It doesn’t really work that way.

The movies themselves, in my mind, we wanted to make sure that these stories always remained Batman and Bruce-centric, that the emotional core, the arc, they’re very Batman point of view stories, Bruce point of view stories. They’re detective stories, they’re mysteries. They’re crime stories where he’s at the center of some mystery that he has to get to the core of and come to understand. But that by going through that experience, there’s an awakening for him and there is an arc for him. The thing, I think, that was done in some of the previous movies [was] where after you’ve done the origin story, he ceases to be the central figure. So, of course, we have the Rogues Gallery is a major aspect of what’s driving, what’s going on in the movies, but you’re staying focused on his point of view, his story.

What was exciting about being able to go off and do the series was that we could switch point of views, that we could suddenly be telling a story where we were Oz and experiencing what that story is. That allowed us to almost switch genres. If you think that the Batman movies are detective stories, crime stories — a serial killer’s story was the first one — Oz’s story, The Penguin, is really more of a gangster story. It’s in Gotham, and the specter of Batman is there, but really, you’re in his point of view and you are coming to understand who he is. It’s a dark American Dream story, right? In the same way that Scarface, the Paul Muni Scarface, Warner Bros. original movie, was very much about that drive, that American Dream drive that takes you to the dark American Dream and pushes you. What’s inside that character? Where are those wounds? Where’s that weakness? Where are those voids that makes getting what you want at any cost for any price? What drives that person?

And it ends up being really a great way to do a character story. A story where you come to understand the psychology of what would take someone in this environment, who would they have to be so that they would be doing these terrifying and despicable things? At the same time that that’s certainly the way Colin plays him and the way that Lauren [LeFranc] wrote him and the way I think he was in The Batman, he’s also incredibly charming, funny, and compelling to watch so that the tones of it make for this experience where you’re kind of drawn to a character who does terrible things. The show itself becomes an illumination as to why.

Greig Fraser’s Cinematography Is In The DNA of ‘The Penguin.’
Matt Reeves and DP Craig Zobel used Gordon Willis and The French Connection as inspiration.
Image via Warner Bros.

I think that Greig Fraser’s cinematography and The Batman is nothing short of brilliant. I have to ask you, is Greig definitely shooting the sequel?

REEVES: I don’t know yet. I certainly hope that the timing will work out for that, but I actually don’t know. We’re not to the place where we know that yet. I hope that’s the case because I just love working with him. I think he’s the best. Actually, he was a little bit involved in the series, too, because I said I wanted to make sure the DNA was the same as we went off and found our own visual voice. That was important, because it was Oz, that I wanted it to be rooted in what we’ve done. We use the same lenses that we used on the movie. When I was talking to Craig Zobel, I said what I thought would be exciting — because Oz is very different from Batman, from Bruce. That’s a very precise procedural and everything is very, very controlled. You’re going on this methododical detective case exploration of the story. One of my favorite movies is [Alan J.] Pakula’s Klute. It’s got Gordon Willis shooting that, and that was actually a touchdown for me and Greig. Actually, I showed him that movie when we did Let Me In and he hadn’t seen it before at that point. He was like, “What’s this? This all looks very modern.” I said, “This is Gordon Willis!” And he was like, “Gordon Willis shot this?” Then we went into this whole deep dive, into this whole thing.

Oz’s energy is so different from Batman’s, so I was proposing maybe there could be a little bit of The French Connection. Maybe there’s a little bit of freeing the camera and letting it be handheld. Craig just embraced that. He was like, “Oh, that would be exciting.” So, what I would do is in the first scenes of the show, there’s kind of a turning point after which everything kind of changes for Oz. So in the beginning, it starts kind of feeling a little bit like you’re seeing a continuation of The Batman, and then suddenly the DNA changes just a bit and you start seeing it in this more live wire way, which is more Oz’s voice. In terms of that, Greig talked to the DP’s as well, and we had a creative conversation. I love working with Greig, and I certainly hope that we’ll continue on The Batman Part II. So, we’ll see. But it really comes down to timing and whether or not our schedules can align.

I totally understand. It’s all about scheduling. Also, he’s a super in-demand cinematographer.

Matt Reeves Is Teaming Up With Michael Giacchino
“We’re doing a project together that he’s going to be directing.”

What about Giacchino?

REEVES: Michael? I mean, I certainly hope so. I’ll go to his house and–

Beg?

REEVES: –punch him in the stomach if he doesn’t do it. No, I’m kidding. The other thing that’s really exciting is that there’s actually a project that we’re doing together. He directed the Marvel short [Werewolf by Night], and he’s great. And by the way, has always thought as a filmmaker and really kind of grew up like I did and J.J. [Abrams] did making movies. That’s kind of who he is. He’s not just an incredible composer, which he is, but he thinks as a filmmaker, really. He’s writing his music as a filmmaker. We’re doing a project together that he’s going to be directing, so he’s gonna be doing more directing. But he did promise me, he goes, “Look, I will always make sure that even when I’m directing, I will write music for your stuff.” So I’m hoping that that’s the case. That, again, that timing will work out. I suppose it would be hard if he was in the middle of directing something at that moment, but I certainly hope that that’s the case.

Will ‘The Batman Part II’ be Shot In IMAX?
Image via Warner Bros. Pictures

I love the IMAX format. It’s my favorite. There’s nothing like it. Is there any chance with the sequel, you might shoot a lot of it in IMAX?

REEVES: I don’t know yet. The hard thing about it is that I love anamorphic and what it does stylistically in what we’re doing. I think that the movie is great in the IMAX format. The IMAX presentation, The Batman in IMAX presentation and also in Dolby Vision is a great experience. It’s definitely meant to be seen on the big screen. I guess the question is, would we go to the IMAX spherical in that different format? I don’t know yet. To be honest with you, it’s tough for me only because I am so drawn to the anamorphic aesthetic for what we’re doing. But that’s not to say that I only want to continue doing just what we’re doing. We need to continue to grow. As the story evolves, I think aspects visually of the movie should change. But I also think it has to be part of the same DNA. When you look at classic trilogies, it’s not as if the second one you go, “Well, that was just another format altogether.” I want it to feel of a piece. I think the idea that you’re trying to push yourself in other ways — if that opportunity presents itself in a way that doesn’t feel self-conscious, then I would be open to that. As we go through explorations, as we will, when we’re fully into prep and we start casting, then we’ll go through camera tests as we always do. We’ll look at all that again.

Matt Reeves Is in Talks To Do More Batman Series

You’re obviously so connected to The Batman and The Penguin. How close did you come to directing an episode of The Penguin?

REEVES: The thing is, I really wanted to. Of course, when we first began and I was talking to Colin, he was going, “Oh, that would be really great.” Except first of all, when we first began, we were actually in post on The Batman — that’s actually where this all started. We had the strike, we had lots of different stuff. Then once we realized that it would put us in conflict with finishing the script, let’s put it this way, there was a lot for me to do. When you’re doing a show, there’s a lot to do when you’re not directing. When you are directing, it’s like when you’re directing a movie, you can’t really do anything but that. At least, I can’t. Some people maybe can, but I just can’t really. When I’m directing, it’s the only thing I can do, so it would squeeze out everything else.

There was a point where we realized given what I needed to do for The Batman Part II, what I needed to do on the show, I really couldn’t be also directing. I just didn’t work out on this time. But you know what? Who knows what would happen in the future? Again, as with all the questions you asked me as it relates to the people I love working with, everything ultimately comes down to schedule. I think if the schedule ever presented itself, and we were doing another one of these shows — we are talking about doing more — I think it would be really fun. Obviously, working with Colin is a dream. I’m excited to work with him in The Batman Part II and the fact that he’s gonna be in that, too.

The Penguin slides onto MAX September 19, 2024.

Watch on MAX